E062_What is your experience with leadership promotion? What help did you receive?

Today and in our upcoming episodes, we'll explore the realities of leadership promotions, especially for those stepping into supervisory roles or advancing to higher leadership positions.

Drawing parallels with the transition to high school, we'll dive into the rollercoaster ride that awaits individuals as they navigate the complexities of leadership. From feeling like top dogs to questioning everything in a matter of months, we'll dissect the challenges and opportunities that come with these promotions.

One significant aspect we'll explore is the impact of leadership on safe operations and the value of understanding oneself and others in fostering inclusive teams.

We'll question the traditional notion of "return on investment" and propose a shift towards "return on engagement" in developing effective safety leaders and supervisors.

Reflecting on personal experiences and anecdotes, we'll uncover the harsh realities of leadership transitions and the importance of early support and guidance. From unexpected promotions to the overwhelming responsibility of managing former peers, we'll share stories of triumphs and tribulations in leadership roles.

We'll also shed light on the alarming statistic of how long it takes for leaders to receive any form of leadership training, sparking conversations about the need for timely support and resources for new supervisors. Additionally, we'll discuss the pitfalls of traditional training approaches and explore alternative methods to ensure knowledge retention and practical application.

Navigating tough conversations, managing workload pressures, and balancing various responsibilities are common challenges supervisors and leaders face. We'll provide insights into effective communication strategies, emotional intelligence, and creating supportive environments for leadership development.

As we embark on this journey, we invite you to join us in exploring these vital topics and helping us shape The Supervisors Hub community to support, nurture, and empower leaders at all levels.

Thanks for listening!

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This episode was produced under Safety Collaborations Limited and now continues as part of Karin Ovari Limited. While we are not currently releasing new episodes, the entire library remains active, and the topics covered are just as relevant today as when they were first recorded.

To learn more about my current work in leadership and communication, visit karinovari.com and the leadership community, The Supervisors Hub.

Connect with us on LinkedIn: Karin Ovari, Nuala Gage,

If you enjoyed this episode, please help us spread the word and leave a review on your preferred podcast player.

Stay Safe, Stay Well
The Safety Collaborators

Chapters

• 0:12 Transitioning Into Leadership Role Challenges
• 11:21 Transitioning Into Leadership Challenges
• 16:07 Challenges and Solutions in Leadership Training

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

Being promoted to a supervisor reminds me of the transition to high school, that 12 to 14 age group where you go from being top of the pops in junior school, full of bravado, ego, and you know everything After a couple of months into high school and everyone's looking at you differently. You're no longer in with the in crowd and you're wondering what the actual beep is this? But best I keep keeping on. Supervising others can be a roller coaster. Welcome to the ride.

Speaker 2: 0:46

I am Nula and I am Karen and we are the safety collaborators.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Our mission is to help people have better conversations and change the way they think about safety. Share us your thinking partners, sharing expertise and wisdom in everything safety, safety culture and psychological safety.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Over the next few episodes, we will be exploring what you may experience becoming a supervisor or a new frontline leader, or just moving into the next role of leadership, how supervisors impact safe operations, how the value of understanding self and others to create inclusive teams, and the ROI of investing in effective safety leadership, roi being the return of investment, or, I wonder, if it's return of engagement, don't know, remind me to change it to ROE. Yeah, exactly so. I've been one of these people who always ended up in a leadership role in some shape or form from an early age and, interestingly, I'm not sure I always sort it out, but I ended up there every time, whether it was running a team in a factory to managing a training division. To another story, and one that I remember very, very clearly, because in this particular story we were software consultants essentially that's what I was and we implemented payroll time recording linking to payroll systems. That's what we were doing, and we do this all over the country and sometimes the world.

Speaker 2: 2:26

And I remember one morning going to the office and at this point I'm just part of the team, I'm not leading anybody, I'm not managing anybody, I'm just part of the team. I arrived in the office and the owners of the business, who actually lived in another state. So this was back in Australia many years ago. We're in the office and I thought, well, that's really unusual. Why are they here? Because normally we know they're coming. Yes, exactly the next thing I know, we're all standing there and the company that we were, or the division that we were a part of, is being shut down. We're moving offices, we're breaking away from the people that we were working with in Sydney, oh wow. And we're all standing there saying, okay, what does that mean?

Speaker 2: 3:16

So all of us consultants everybody was just like big eyes listening to we're going to a Malcomade and we're going to do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah all that stuff, and all you're hearing is what's in it for me.

Speaker 1: 3:29

What's going to happen? Do I have a job? Do I have a job?

Speaker 2: 3:32

Exactly. Then they said oh so, karen, can we have a little conversation with you? I said, sure, thinking oh my God, here it comes. All right, here it comes. We'd like you to become the state manager for this team. Yeah, sorry, you want me to become the what? Yeah, so we'd like you to become the state manager. Oh, okay, what does that mean? So we're moving offices, like the office.

Speaker 2: 3:57

The new office is going to be 45 minutes away from the one around the corner from where I lived and I went, okay, great, so what does that mean Exactly? Well, you know, you'll take care of sales and our client base and help develop the team and all of this. I'm thinking, okay, like how many times have I done this before in my life up to this point? Like virtually none. Well, of course, it comes with a pay increase and it came with the perks of being a leader, and I thought, oh, great, so I'll get some support and I'll be supported in all of this. Oh, so we move into the new office and things start trundling along and I get my own office. Oh, what a period in my life. That was because, all of a sudden, I'm here managing my peers.

Speaker 1: 4:49

And, of course, people that you were actually friends with and would go for Friday drinks with Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:54

So all of a sudden, those things that I've observed as a peer that well, you know, not my responsibility because I'm not their manager or leader became my problem. So I had to learn very quickly how to have tough conversations. I'm going to say right here and now that I'm not sure I did that very well back then.

Speaker 1: 5:13

I don't think we do in the beginning. No, of course we don't. We grow into it, we try to figure it out ourselves and we go oh my God, that was a bit of a mess, oops.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Well, it was very damaging for me, in fact, because one of the other persons thought they should have had the role.

Speaker 1: 5:28

Okay.

Speaker 2: 5:29

So then there's a bit of competition and ego, and of course I'm sort of like, oh well, everybody will be happy, like we'll be good, We'll just work together and figure it out. It's not like that at all, and I also had competition from some people who were in another state, right, I mean, oh well, oh no, it was pretty tough, actually to the point where I actually didn't come back into the office for a couple of days because I actually got quite sick, like mentally overwhelmed by the whole thing. I wasn't supported by head office. I can remember thinking we're just out here this is a cricket term out in left field without a bat, so we were sort of just left alone as a satellite office and we weren't getting the support.

Speaker 2: 6:09

I was trying to get the support for the team. I was trying to get all of that, trying to learn how to manage a team and a group of people, and there was no one I could go to. There was just almost nobody to turn to, and you know we didn't have Google and all sorts of other things back then. No, we had the yellow pages Not helpful. So coaching was a word that didn't even exist.

Speaker 1: 6:31

Well, actually and I am going to use the term that actually it was just pretty shitty, it was shitty it was.

Speaker 2: 6:37

It was painful and I can remember I went home one afternoon and I was pretty upset. I went home and I can remember I was sharing a house at the time with some friends. We had a pool and I can remember sitting there in the afternoon. I was drinking red wine, looking at the pool and thought this is all a bit difficult. It was pretty serious moment and that's how bad it can get when we get promoted or we buy choice or not take on a role and don't get the support that's required to be successful.

Speaker 1: 7:10

So often we are set up to fail and it hurts and it hurts very much, deeply, especially when you kind of you're promised a million things and oh my gosh, you know, like reward, everything kind of comes in. You think, oh, this is so awesome, it's so amazing, and then you just face plant.

Speaker 2: 7:26

Yeah, along the way, absolutely. And I was shocked by some of the conversations I was having with people who I thought, oh, hang on, I thought we were friends, you know, I thought we knew each other and they were mean.

Speaker 1: 7:39

The knives are out, and that's totally totally.

Speaker 2: 7:43

So it was pretty tough gig, I have to say, and in the end I just had enough. And that's what happens Good people leave.

Speaker 1: 7:51

Good people leave, but also they take that trauma with them into their next role. Yes, they do. And then there's a sense of apprehension and am I good enough? Will I make this work? Actually, no, I think I'll just go back into being a worker. I don't want to lead people.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Which, interestingly, is exactly what I did, and within six months of taking that role on guess what, I was the leader again. By this point I'm like, okay, it's obviously my lot in life, but you know, we just can't keep a good one down. Well, that still came up with challenges as well. But anyhow, interesting, and we'll talk about some stats in a little bit, which plays right into what I've just said.

Speaker 1: 8:34

When people are promoting us into leadership roles, it's never with malice, it's always with the best intention and it's always kind of thinking that you are the right person and the right fit and generally you probably are or could be, but you don't know what you don't know. And I mean my first leadership role I was 19. Yeah well, same. I thought I knew everything and in many ways, thank goodness I did think I knew everything, because I wouldn't have put my hand up for half the stuff I did if I actually knew what I was getting into in that stage. And I also remember looking at people like the supervisors above me and the level above that and thinking, oh, they don't really do much. I mean, they just do meetings and paperwork, that'll be easy. Like what a breeze.

Speaker 1: 9:21

Oh, my word no definitely not a breeze and having to deal with people again who were peers, who were possibly a lot older than me and had a lot more life experience, work experience and possibly did know or have ideas on how things could work better. And I remember some of those hard lessons were about that realization of the more I learned, the less I know. Hell yeah, and the more I did learn, the more I realized the value of those with more experience, whether they were my leader or whether they were reporting into me and to pull them into discussions and into the roles because they were sometimes that I mean it was just epic failures. I remember, as I was managing a logistics company both the customer service division and the operational side and we needed to do training, I mean I'd worked in the operation. I started in the business right at the bottom, worked my way up, so of course I knew what the operations did and how it worked. I developed the training, never went to one of the people who actually did the job to say how about this? So now I'm doing the training and there's some of them looking at me like what on earth are you talking about? Like it doesn't work like that.

Speaker 1: 10:39

And thankfully we had enough of a relationship that they were at the end of it. They were like one of the guys came over to me and he said new, I've got to be honest with you, that was utter crap. You have no idea what you're talking about. It does not work like that. You might think it works like that, but guess what? It doesn't and they're game. That was such a lesson I'm grateful to have had at a young age, because when I then moved into different roles and moved into consulting, one of the things that we still carry forward with every one of our clients is being hands on, observing what is happening on the ground with the supervisors, with the teams, seeing what the reality is and then going how would you as the team like to improve, what would you like to do differently? And then pulling that up to management and saying here are the ideas from the group, what can we do and what can't we? I don't think I had as rough a ride as you did.

Speaker 2: 11:32

Oh no, I had a couple actually.

Speaker 1: 11:34

Yeah, and the thing is, it doesn't have to be that.

Speaker 2: 11:38

No, it doesn't, but it still is and it's very much so. I suspect there's even more confusion today than ever. I think part of it is also looking at ourselves as that individual going into the role. I mean, we're different people, whereas you probably will have just gone, well, I'm just going to go and do whatever. I mean, I do see myself as a what I call myself as a freedom fighter. I will fight for the team tooth and nail. So when I get hurt by members of that team, then I take it very, very hard. So I think part of that lessons is in both cases, first of all, learning to ask for help sooner rather than later, because part of mine probably was what? I'm supposed to know this, so I can't ask my boss because I'm supposed to know this. They put me in this position Exactly, so you keep going through this circle of Jesus.

Speaker 2: 12:30

They want me to do a, a what A? Review on someone. How the hell do I do that? Right, like you know, performance reviews, doing that on people that it's like where do I even start? No idea, and there was no one to talk or ask you know. And then you said well, I think I need some training. No, no, no, we haven't got the budget for that, or we haven't got the time, or we haven't got this, so you're doing okay.

Speaker 2: 12:54

Yeah you figure it out. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I know that still happens today. That's why people are on lots of different leadership training courses out there, and that's why Google is so prolifically used. Yes, but then the challenge with Google what is a?

Speaker 2: 13:08

performance review, then you get 100 ideas and options and you think, oh, my God, that's a little overwhelming. Yeah, what on earth do I do there? And so then you end up not doing anything, or you just wing it, which is okay. If you get through the winging, great. Sometimes we don't. So it really is challenging.

Speaker 1: 13:31

When you first go into a supervisory role, you sometimes you will copy what you have learned from those around you. And then there's that, or you might go oh, I really didn't appreciate the way that I was supervised by Bob Jane and for whomever. I don't want to be like that. So you go pendulum swing all the way to the other side, which causes issues all of its own, because usually it's somewhere in the middle and I think of in a new parents. And when new parents have their first baby, generally they've read all these books because there's a lot of info out there. They're going to have the perfect baby, the perfect child that's going to have all the milestones exactly according to what's in the book, and nothing goes like that. You go back to the book or you go, but what, where? And you just have to figure it out. It's a trial and error and I think a lot of the time supervising teams is left to trial and error.

Speaker 2: 14:30

I think something you just raised is really important. There is lots of information out there, as you just said, there's lots of books and how to do it. You can read all the books in the world, but when push comes to shove you have to wing it. It is an experiment, at least, hopefully, when your parents there's two of you you can support each other, or you've got your other family members, like your mother or the ones that have been there before you, and even then it's still going to be different.

Speaker 1: 14:56

And you're still going to go. I want to do it my way.

Speaker 2: 14:59

And then there's that. So it is a little bit like that. So there's lots and lots of information about leadership and how to be a leader, and then you're faced with a situation. You have to have a tough conversation, and it's usually the tough conversations that become the most difficult thing to deal with, because often people are promoted into that position because they were technically good at something. So whether it was being a consultant, whether it was being a sales person, whether it's being a driller, we're technically good at what we do. Whether it's a mechanic, it doesn't really matter what it is Making dresses, we're technically good at something. And then you said right now, I want you to be the leader of that group. So we've gone from feeling 75% of our day being great and we know what we're doing to 75% of our day having no idea what we're doing really going what just happened. And so you know, we've seen that we see it in the field when people get promoted and they end up going back to where they were comfortable, which then causes problems within the team, because then you may be seen as micromanaging, or we step right away and like, oh, they don't care, they're useless, you know. So it's trying to find that balance.

Speaker 2: 16:07

There was a book I read a little while ago and three things stuck to me. The very first thing to do is you know when we go into this role, that's if you've got the wherewithal to realize this. You got to work on yourself first. So what you mentioned earlier you've got to listen, watch, learn, understand, build, rapport, build trust in a different way. Then look at the environment you're in. Then you work on what's the environment is.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Because I think what happens when a lot of people do Move into that new role or leadership or whatever they get right? Well, I know there's problems in this team, so I'm going to fix them all? Yep, and that's not the thing to do. You've got to see yourself first build trust. Indeed, as this new role in this new position is, how do we build trust? How do we look at the environment? What's the systems and processes here? How do I work with this? Because now, as that leader, I've got to manage upwards as well, as well as exactly the team and as well as, possibly, clients and suppliers and all those other conflicts and requirements, and then the people part comes.

Speaker 1: 17:15

Now, half the problems may have been resolved by the time you fix the first two, if you're lucky, if you're lucky if you're lucky I Think we've mentioned it before the people who go into supervisory and leadership positions might as well be applying for a Superhero position with the Avengers and today it's worse than ever.

Speaker 2: 17:34

It really is, and we did cover quite a few of those.

Speaker 1: 17:38

We did a leadership series in between episodes 44 and 46, you know we looked at empathy and compassion as a leader, and what is leadership?

Speaker 1: 17:45

accountability and responsibility, because there is so much and For new supervisors it really is. One of those is your environment, that you're in yourself, one where you can feel comfortable to say I think I need to learn a bit more, or, as you said, that being able to ask for help. Hmm, and you mentioned stats earlier. Can you remember? Like, what are the stats? How? When is it that supervisors are usually given training after becoming a supervisor?

Speaker 2: 18:16

So I wrote an article must be five years ago now for a coaching magazine, and I actually you reminded me of it when you mentioned the word pendulum swing, because it's actually called the blue to white collar pendulum swing. Huh, and we'll add it into this. And part of that discussion was that on average and I don't believe this statistic has changed on average it takes 14 years Before a leader or a team leader gets any leadership training at all in whatever shape or form. That is wow. So the problem with that, of course, and now for some that'll be less and for others It'll be maybe never official training in leadership skills, and I think there's some lacking in some of those courses and things that are out there as well, even if we do go on though well, sometimes it's seen as a tick box.

Speaker 1: 19:01

You know, oh yeah, you've had bad reviews will send you on training, precisely, and it's any training will do. Yeah, preferably the cheapest, exactly exactly so.

Speaker 2: 19:10

The problem is it becomes a self-perpetuating problem. So you have somebody who walks into this new role. They don't get the support they need. They look at others who may or may not be ideal role models. They then take on that because that's what their experience base is. They then maybe progress to the next layer, take all of those maybe not best qualities of leadership with them, and so it keeps going and keeps going and then eventually maybe they'll become quite senior and then we need to spend an awful lot of expensive coaching money to help them be better in that role at that time.

Speaker 2: 19:45

And there's different skills are required at different layers of leadership. Without a doubt, what you need as a C-suite executive is quite different to what you need when you're just becoming an on-site On-site and managing hands-on type of thing. So our focus is kind of more at that end anyway. And then the other challenges we send them on to training course when that happens. And they go on that training course and they get quite enthusiastic and they think that's some great ideas here. I'll go back and I'll talk to my manager about what we can maybe implement here. And of course I'm going back to well, the problems haven't gone away. You've just been away for four or five days and now we've got a backlog of work, or whatever the case may be, and there's 200 emails in your inbox and that conversation doesn't go any further, or it's like, yeah, we'll talk about it next week and next week never comes.

Speaker 2: 20:35

So then you get a little deflated and you think, well, what's the point of going on this training anyway, because I can't do anything with it. Again, we're giving worst-case scenarios here, but it's a very common one, so how can we help that?

Speaker 1: 20:48

Yeah, I remember these also. It's something along the lines of like the 30 day rule or something. I'll have to look it up, but it's within 30 days of going on a training program. If you have not re-iterated, implemented, tested, trialled, you will lose 80% of what you learned on that program, especially if it's new.

Speaker 2: 21:08

So you, within the first three weeks, you will forget 80% of what you learned and we only really learn about 10% anyway and in the following three weeks you lose another 80%. So by the time you get to about 12 weeks out from when you've been on that, you pretty much forgotten most of it. Yeah, you might as well have not bothered If you don't get the chance to iterate, to experiment, to implement, to do something with it.

Speaker 1: 21:31

It's tough for supervisors and leaders? Yes, Because they're also trying to just get their job done and get things done, and they might know that okay we know that NULA needs help.

Speaker 1: 21:42

So we're going to send NULA on this training course and, as you said, nula comes back all enthusiastic and they're going oh, that's fabulous, just get on with it. And then it's like, oh, but it's not that my leader is not wanting to support me, but they also just don't have the capacity. They don't have the capacity to coach, they don't have the capacity to have that kind of like experimental conversation or to bouncy ideas, and they may to a degree, but maybe not to the degree that is needed for the momentum. So again we come back to that question of how could we do things differently? How can we do things in a way that we don't have that 80% drop off, that we don't have people feeling left alone, kind of moving from friend to fiend because their friends have gone.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Oh, you're no longer that nice person we dealt with. You've now had me in a disciplinary hearing because I wasn't wearing the correct PPE or I didn't follow the procedure, and now all of a sudden, I'm definitely not in with the in crowd or you try and have those difficult conversations and you think you're giving really good feedback. Meanwhile it is landing like a freaking lead zeppelin on top of the other person's head and they feel like they've been sucker punched and they're like where did that even come from? Because giving and receiving feedback is not easy?

Speaker 2: 22:59

No, it's not, and I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what that actually means and how to do it. And it's not a if you do this you'll get that. It just doesn't really work like that. It's about nuance, it's about observing, and that's where conversational intelligence is very helpful. So, having an understanding of where do we live on the trust cycle, what different types of conversations are needed, when, because they're not all the same. When do we need to be transactional? When do we need to be a little influential Direct or directives. When do we be transformational, where we look more at okay, let's work on this together versus I need you to follow this instruction. So there's many variations in that. Understanding where you're at emotionally in that moment is critical. How are you showing up? Are you angry? Are you not? Are you feeling sad? What emotions are sitting there with you at the moment? You're frustrated.

Speaker 1: 23:59

Where are you on your own rollercoaster?

Speaker 2: 24:01

Never mind the rollercoaster of being a superfiner, exactly, exactly, key skills of leadership is understanding, having your self-awareness. I mean, that's why we do the profiling work, that's why we run workshops on conversational intelligence and the like.

Speaker 1: 24:16

If you're listening to this and you're thinking what on earth is conversational intelligence?

Speaker 1: 24:20

Surely that's just conversations? Well, there isn't. There's a whole depth to it and we could actually do like a little mini. Follow these episodes and you can grow yourself in so many aspects, which is why we do this podcast, indeed. So we will put in the show notes links to the conversational intelligence series in episodes 38 to 43, as well as the episodes where we've dived into giving feedback and how do we approach others, in episodes 31 and 32, because there's such rich information for you as a supervisor, whether you're a new supervisor or not, or whether you're a supervisor that has a lot of experience and you're just going.

Speaker 1: 25:01

I just need a little bit of energy and I need some nuance. It's a great place to go looking. It is when we look up and we look at supervisors above us and we go oh, that just looks terrifying, because sometimes it isn't what I thought. Oh, it's going to be so easy, la la. Well, some people are quite more realistic than I was and they go. I don't want to look like a fool. I mean, there's no ways I'm going to be able to do this, and then people actually decline promotional opportunities, which is really sad because there should be that support. And, kaz, you and I talk about this so often. So what if there was a neutral space to learn, to have peer support and to get leadership coaching and have someone to turn to when you are in that supervisory role?

Speaker 2: 25:51

We are going to introduce. So this is a little bit of a plug and we'd love to get your thoughts on this. We do have a dream to create that space and we're actually calling it the Safety Leaders Hub. Now it's interesting we're using the word safety in there, but really it's about creating a safe space for leaders, and for frontline leaders in particular, where you can join, have conversations, where you'll be able to ask for some help. But it's also about peer learning, so it's not just yourself, but others are in that community. So it's about building a community hub where there'll be some micro learning.

Speaker 2: 26:25

In there. You'll be able to get some coaching if you wish. There'll be group coaching, there'll be conversations and caring, connected conversations, and that's really what we want to build is a space for people to feel safe and to build the skills and what they need and it's everybody's needs are different at different times. The idea is that you know you feel safe enough to be able to speak up, to contribute, to get things done safely for the benefit of yourself and your team, so you can get involved. We actually have a waiting list because we're going to launch this in the next month or two. We have a waiting list for people to come on here and it is called the safety leaders hub. So feel free to visit safetycollaborationscom forward, slash the safety leaders hub and you can actually have a look at a bit more of that information, of what is on there and sign up to get onto the waiting list and we'll keep you updated on to where we're at with that before launches.

Speaker 1: 27:22

And remember that you and your teams are not alone in this and we have an opportunity to build a community that supports, that nurtures, that, challenges and grows supervisors to support the frontline, and join us in the next few episodes where we are going to dive into that a little bit more deeper.

Speaker 1: 27:42

So have a look at what is important about understanding self and others. How does that take us to the next level of safe operations and it's often a hard question and I don't think it's one that we'll be able to answer in a podcast. But really having a look at what is and I loved your reframe of return on investment, karen to return on engagement in developing safety leaders and supervisors who have support in the roles that they're doing and, as always, we'd love to hear your ideas. So leave us a thought or a note on the show notes. There's a space for you to do that on our LinkedIn page Safety Collaborations because this is about you and your ideas and your thoughts are going to help us grow the supervisors, safety leaders hub into something that really adds value.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Absolutely. We love having these conversations and we will continue to have these conversations with you, and we love that we can get into your ears and have these personal chats. So do follow us on LinkedIn Safety Collaborations or myself, karen Avari, on Nullar. Of course, nullar Gage and sharing is caring. We want this to spread and to help others. That is the purpose behind doing these weekly episodes so that we can have conversations for the greater good. So follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a review Five stars would be awesome and let's share our collective conversations until next week. Stay safe and stay well.